Ep 141 – Meredith Fennessy Witts + Melissa Lohrer, Agency Darlings – Community Over Competition: How Agency Darlings Are Rewriting the Rules
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Featuring: Meredith Fennessy Witts + Melissa Lohrer, Agency Darlings
In episode 141, I sit down with Melissa and Meredith, the hosts of the Agency Darlings podcast and longtime agency operators, to unpack why so many agency owners feel burned out, stuck, or disillusioned by the traditional agency growth advice that’s been circulating for decades.
We talk candidly about the “bro playbook” — hustle culture, ego-driven leadership, top-down decision making, and growth at all costs — and why it often leads to unhealthy teams, poor margins, and miserable owners. Melissa and Meredith share what they’ve learned from years inside agencies about what actually drives sustainable growth: emotional intelligence, clear communication, strong operations, and leadership that prioritizes people alongside profit.
This episode is a refreshing, grounded look at agency leadership through a more human lens — one that challenges outdated norms and offers agency owners permission to build businesses that align with who they actually are.
Key Bytes
• Why the traditional agency “bro playbook” is failing modern agencies
• The hidden cost of hustle culture on owners and teams
• How emotional intelligence impacts agency growth and retention
• What healthier leadership looks like inside agencies
• Redefining success beyond revenue and headcountChapters
00:00 Why the traditional agency playbook feels broken
05:12 The origins of hustle culture in agencies
11:04 Masculine-driven leadership norms and their impact
17:32 Emotional intelligence as a growth lever
23:58 Building healthier agency cultures
30:41 Operator-led leadership vs. ego-led leadership
37:10 Sustainable growth without burnout
43:26 Redefining success as an agency owner
49:12 Advice for owners ready to do things differently
Each with over 15 years of experience in the agency space and deep-rooted connections within the industry, Melissa and Meredith bring actionable insights, expert advice, and candid conversations that challenge the conventional, masculine-driven approaches to agency growth.
Contact Meredith & Melissa:
www.agencydarlings.com
https://bit.ly/MWDarlings
https://waverlyave.com
https://instagram.com/waverlyave.co
https://www.lecheile.co/contact
https://www.instagram.com/lecheile.co/
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Steve / Agency Outsight (00:02.725)
Welcome to agency bites. I'm your host, Steve Guberman from agency outside where I coach agency owners to build the business of their dreams. This week I am joined by Melissa and Meredith. They're two powerhouse operators with more than 15 years each in the agency world. They've built deep roots in the industry and they're known for their honest practical take on what it really means to grow an agency today. Together we're going to dig into why so much of the traditional masculine driven agency playbook is outdated.
and how a more human grounded approach can lead to healthier, more sustainable growth. They run a killer podcast that we're going to get into the agency darlings. I am super pumped to have you here. Thanks for joining me.
Melissa (00:42.61)
Thank you for having us. What a nice intro.
Steve / Agency Outsight (00:46.981)
Yeah, I wish I could thank my copywriter, but I can't. So here we are.
Melissa (00:51.122)
Hahaha!
Meredith (00:51.822)
I wish you could think at ChatGBT.
Steve / Agency Outsight (00:56.315)
Don't tell that's secret. So agency darlings and you each run your own separate agency. Talk about like kind of what the what brought you all together, what brought you all to launch agency darlings, what that group is all about. I love it so much and so I want to like scream it from the rooftops.
Meredith (01:04.481)
Yes.
Melissa (01:05.606)
Yep.
Melissa (01:13.841)
Yeah.
Melissa (01:17.33)
thank you so much, Steve. Yeah, our love story. That's how it's presented. So Meredith and I were both consultants in the agency space independently doing our thing. We can't remember exactly, I do remember I reached out to Meredith. I made the first move, but we can't remember why and how I came across her. But I remember thinking.
I love what she's doing and I just want to chat with her. And then from the beginning, we would have these, I remember every phone call went over time and we just had so much alignment like we do with you, Steve, around our philosophies, around the industry. And so we would have these like every three or four months catch up calls, let's chat about what's going on. And then we both happened to be on an agency retreat and got even closer there and then.
found out some really weird coincidental things. Like we grew up in the same town, but we kind of were ships passing in the night she left when I came in and had like the same elementary school best friend. So it was just all these things. We're both one of five and we were just like, wait, this is Kismet. We need to do something. And on our drive back to the airport, we started talking about.
Meredith (02:23.97)
Yeah.
Steve / Agency Outsight (02:26.01)
Wow.
Melissa (02:38.13)
podcast and then the whole flight home I remember she went back to DC where she lived at the time I went back to New York and the whole flight home we were whatsapping ideas keep the conversation going we just had so many ideas and then as Meredith says she was like eight months pregnant at the time so we were like let's
Meredith (02:47.274)
I bought Wi-Fi. I bought Wi-Fi. was like I was in the early stage of love because I bought Wi-Fi on the flight to just like... Yeah.
Melissa (03:06.418)
table this until you are in a place where we can do something. And then I remember we made a promise to ourselves, like, we're not gonna do this unless we get paid to do it. We need to, you know, let's look for sponsors. We were truly naive, and if that was even an option, but we reached out to two brands, got sponsors, and we were like, I guess we're doing this, so let's go. And, yep, we didn't have cover art, we didn't have...
Steve / Agency Outsight (03:29.743)
Ground Zero, you got sponsors? That's amazing.
Melissa (03:35.992)
anything. We just had... it's shocking.
Meredith (03:36.91)
It's honestly shocking. Like still to this day, I mean, I almost hope that our sponsors are not listening to this because I think it's shocking that we are getting paid a considerable amount, honestly, to do this. And I think the two of us agree, or I know that the two of us agree, like we wouldn't be doing it without any sort of income, you know,
Steve / Agency Outsight (03:36.933)
Wow.
Meredith (04:06.892)
just getting income from it because I don't think that people know how much goes into running a podcast and like just the planning process, the outreach, like all of the different things and making sure that it's something that people really want to listen to. yeah, so I mean, it's been really amazing to see the early success of Agency Darlings and we...
I mean, it's fun because Melissa and I, we've now become like, it's really slowly or quickly, I should say, become a bit of a, more of a media production company rather than just a podcast. We have a lot of different aspirational goals for ourselves in the next couple of years. But I think the end, one of the end goals is to,
have more of a production company that has several different baby podcasts underneath it, including Agency Darlings. then we've got a community that we just launched with a bunch of really badass agency founders. And I don't know, we're really excited to see where it all goes. And I think when it comes down to it, one of the big things that we have done is
We are very much so interested and fueled by it being something that's revenue generating. Yet we also, even if it's revenue generating and it's something that's sucking our souls and we're not really enjoying it, we're both very honest with one another. Like, hey, let's take a break or like, let's just like, people aren't gonna, they're not going to.
Melissa (05:53.468)
Yeah.
Meredith (06:01.134)
cry at night because we didn't release an episode. Like, we'll be okay. So either way, thank you for bringing us on. you know, I think secondarily, we also run kind of like sister consultancies. And so I support agencies in more of a strategic, like very growth oriented way that's founded and
Melissa (06:04.24)
Right. Yeah.
Meredith (06:31.488)
It's really backed by a lot of finances and data and really support them to redefine their offers and their pricing, but also really look into the operational side from the workforce standpoint. Melissa basically does in some ways the exact same thing, but very much so from a new biz, like a biz dev angle. So it's cool because...
Melissa (06:56.486)
Yep.
Meredith (06:59.636)
As we were saying earlier, like when we used to connect, we used to basically talk about the exact same things that we do now, but now we're frankly getting paid to do it and we're doing it in more of a public way.
Melissa (07:11.248)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Steve / Agency Outsight (07:14.446)
Love it. So I will say that the idea of I want to get paid to run this podcast is a beautiful thing. And I do hope your sponsors are listening because more ears, why not? But to me, it represents the humility of what you've got invested in the product. And that's what they're investing in. the idea to me, that's a testament to what they are investing in is the quality of people and why you're doing it. So but like for me, I'm curious.
Melissa (07:25.894)
Yeah.
Melissa (07:30.566)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa (07:41.743)
Yeah.
Steve / Agency Outsight (07:44.601)
Now that you've been doing it, launching season four, the love for it and what you're doing, would you do it if you weren't able to have landed sponsorships and be a paid podcaster?
Melissa (07:58.256)
I don't know. mean, I think that's a tough question because we have such a beautiful friendship and business partnership that's come from it that I would say, yeah, we would do not getting paid. But I think the idea of us getting paid wasn't from a place of like being money hungry. It's just when you're a founder and you run a business, time becomes money. like as we were founders of other businesses and deciding to do another business, we had to think, okay, we're
taking time away from this other thing. So if I'm not getting paid here, even though it may generate leads, we know that's part of it, but that takes time. I think it was just a very practical, like time is money. If we're not getting paid here, it's not gonna be worth, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. And I'm so glad that we went in that way because...
I don't think we knew what we were getting into. We didn't realize how much time this thing was gonna take up. And look, it's given us so many things. Like through community we just launched came because of the passion from our listeners and the followups we were getting and people writing us saying like, you changed my business this one episode, I changed this thing and doubled my revenue or whatever it was. Like we were like, my God, this is like a thing. Like we can't...
Meredith (08:54.232)
Thank
Melissa (09:18.575)
We can't just walk away from this. And it filled our cups. But I'm just so glad we started that way, because I think you can easily, it's raised the bar for us every season. We're like, if you were willing to invest in us then, look at us now. And it's continued to allow us to go bigger in our thinking. And we do really see our brand partnerships as a mutually beneficial thing.
Meredith (09:33.185)
Right.
Melissa (09:45.746)
fully know they are investing in us and we take that with the utmost, it's the biggest compliment that they believe in us, but we have to deliver, yeah.
Meredith (09:55.319)
And we know that we have to deliver, like we deliver on that and which makes us a little bit, you know, we're on the hook in a sense. but yeah, it's cool. I mean, we're about to hit a hundred K in brand sponsorship money. This, you know, and very likely in the next month or so, which it's just almost like it's shocking and bonkers to me. like,
Steve / Agency Outsight (10:11.663)
Well.
Meredith (10:19.766)
what's going on? And then I think especially with the community and with other things, I was just chatting with my mom, basically teaching her what a Slack community is, which I think from her perspective, she's a nurse practitioner, she's like always worked very much so not in the online space. And she's like, wow, so you're like, she called me an online person now, which like makes like, it feels like
Melissa (10:37.873)
you
Meredith (10:49.73)
we're at this weird place where, like, are we influencers? I don't know. But it's a weird kind of persona shift, because I don't think Melissa nor I really ever saw something like this coming. Well, let's get into the fun stuff. Let's chat.
Steve / Agency Outsight (10:54.126)
Yes?
Melissa (11:05.071)
Yeah.
Steve / Agency Outsight (11:06.178)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, so, uh, I also want to hear about the community, but it's funny you say that because last night I was joking with my fiance and I was like, you know, I'm a paid podcaster. You might want to like control your tone a little bit. Um, yeah, yeah. Um, so talk about the community real quick. Who's who's in it? What's the purpose? What's the value?
Melissa (11:08.303)
Hmm.
Melissa (11:11.974)
Yeah.
Meredith (11:15.85)
Yeah.
Melissa (11:17.737)
Yeah, I have a microphone just so you know.
Meredith (11:21.708)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa (11:28.803)
Yeah, we just had our first welcome call yesterday and like I left it. I called Meredith and I was like, wow, that was magical. Yeah, it so we're we've always been in communities and I think that's like, honestly, as as founders has been a big part of our success story, like being surrounded by other people doing big things helps you think bigger. It helps you see paths to get there, especially for women where like
Meredith (11:36.632)
We were on the verge of tears.
Melissa (11:57.82)
This is relatively a new generation of like the strength of female entrepreneurship. And I think from the beginning, Agency Darlings has felt like a community, but it's been us talking into the ether, not really knowing fully who we're reaching. We know, you we got some of those DMs and feedback from people, but we wanted to really like meet the people that were listening and tuning in and.
taking practical strategies and we wanted it to be more of a two-way dialogue. Like, tell us what works, tell us what didn't. Are you doing something different that's better? So we've had this in the back of our minds for some time, but when you're running two businesses, you have to take your time and find the right moments to do things. And we felt like it was the right time. So it's a small, intimate community. We're capping it at 50 people for now, just so we can see what...
the role requires of us, just like when we launched the podcast, we know we don't know what we're getting into. So we're like, let's see how it goes. but it's, it's such an incredible community of agency owners that are growing their businesses. They're pivoting their businesses and they were all really inspired by each other yesterday. And I think sometimes more than the value we can give them, they can give each other value and learn from each other and we can learn from them. And it's a very like communal space. So.
We're really proud of it. And I think the podcast showed, and I'm sure you see this with yours too, Steve, like there's a real need for agency owners to see and talk about these things openly. there's a lot of what happens in the agency space is posturing. Like we did X in this amount of time, but there's not really a truth of behind the scenes. well, I took out a loan and I had to fire half my staff.
And, you know, last year was our worst year. Like we need to tell these real stories so people know that like, hey, what you're going through is normal. And that agency that got to that level went through a lot of stuff before they got there.
Meredith (13:58.061)
Yeah.
Meredith (14:02.51)
Totally, it's not just a highlight reel. Yeah, I mean, I think we're really excited to see where it goes. And I think there's going to be a lot of really good connections that come from it, a lot of really good, maybe partnerships that come from it. And one thing that I'll say is, I mean, I know that our podcast audience for the most part is, they're women.
Melissa (14:05.083)
Mm-hmm.
Meredith (14:30.062)
we are not just going to be a women, a solely women community. So we will take the men as well. But yeah, it's exciting. There are a lot of really good, badass, very seasoned founders within there and all sorts of agency founders that are really.
to learn from each other, be vulnerable and grow and scale and really strategize with other founders in the space.
Steve / Agency Outsight (15:06.136)
Love it. Yeah. I think that level of authenticity of like what's really behind the scenes is vital. Too many people carry the burden of like the debt or the challenges or not paying themselves or the sleepless nights or whatever. And having that community of like, I'm not unique. And, I've got the same, you know, a similar community and I'm a member of a number of other communities and
Melissa (15:16.826)
Yeah.
Meredith (15:17.688)
Totally.
Melissa (15:27.846)
Yep.
Steve / Agency Outsight (15:28.77)
that toxicity of like the bravado of like the bro agency, I have zero interest in being ever a part of any of those conversations. I get approached by like the podcast guesting companies with all these bro agency founders and I don't want anything to do with that. To me, that is just the false evidence appearing real. is what forges the copycat goals that I speak so highly, you know, so prominently about. And so yeah, more of that authenticity in our space where
Melissa (15:34.405)
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Meredith (15:41.602)
Yes.
Melissa (15:43.142)
Yeah.
Melissa (15:50.384)
Yep.
Steve / Agency Outsight (15:58.267)
Like the mental health toxicity and mental health issues all root from and stem from like, I'm not going to feed into that whatsoever. So I upload the hell out of that.
Melissa (16:02.842)
Yep.
Absolutely. And it's also like the industry is now so, I mean, we go through these cycles, right? Holding companies are the thing, then everyone's like decoupled. But I think what, because we work with all indie agencies, I think community is also important for partnership and for these organic networks to form because we can't all individually serve everyone. And we need to strategically figure out.
Meredith (16:07.918)
You love it?
Melissa (16:33.211)
How can we partner together in the service of this client to get them further with our individual expertise? And that's exactly Meredith and I coming together. It's like we have individual expertise that does have overlap, but that allows us to give the best possible advice to agency owners. Sometimes we come at it from different perspectives or we have different ways of solving the problem. Her method might hit stronger than mine. And so I really think of these communities, not just like as a place to vent, but like,
If you're using them right, it's like, you you guys serve similar audiences. Let's find ways of partnering. So one plus one equals three.
Meredith (17:12.302)
And I also think to your point, Melissa, like you're coming there so that then you're able to partner with these agencies so that you can both grow. And I say that meaning that, I mean, Melissa and I really talk a lot about.
Melissa (17:26.544)
Yeah.
Meredith (17:31.823)
specializing and not being everything for everyone and not being full service because otherwise you're kind of, you're not carving a place and a space out for you in the market and in the industry. by, you know, this is one example, but by joining a community like this, you're able to identify,
Steve / Agency Outsight (17:47.204)
Mm-hmm.
Meredith (17:56.911)
Who are these people that I could refer out to and who can I, like if somebody wants more, like if they need to scale and they're looking for web designer, they're looking for naming or whatever it may be, can I do that? Sure. But should it actually go to Natalie? Yes, absolutely. And I think that it gives you a lot of credibility to push away certain,
Melissa (18:17.019)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Meredith (18:26.838)
I mean, I guess I could use better verbiage there, but like to refer out certain leads because they will then come back to you and once you are right for them. And similarly, that Natalie will A, be so grateful for their connection and the referral, but B, if you position yourself correctly and you are very
Melissa (18:40.203)
Mm-hmm.
Meredith (18:55.81)
very overt about exactly who the right person is and exactly who the right client is for you, that will come back and everything just reverberates. So.
Melissa (19:03.171)
It comes back tenfold.
Steve / Agency Outsight (19:05.393)
Yeah. Yeah. So fully agree. Let's first take a side note to all hail Natalie, who is an amazing badass and introduced us. She's a rock star. I fully agree with that. It also gives you the ability to like stay on the path of the, vertical, the niche that you serve and the service that you provide and not veer off because here's shiny service of I don't do UX, but there's an opportunity to make money. No, I'm going to refer somebody out to do the UX cause I'm going to stay in my lane.
Melissa (19:12.107)
Hahaha.
Steve / Agency Outsight (19:34.523)
And I just, believe that that is so vital that when you say no to the wrong opportunity, you're leaving like the universe, the manifestation, the whatever open to give me the right opportunities over here. so having community of, I've got people that can do that. You look, when you refer the right partner and that partnership then thrives, it all goes back to, I can't believe so-and-so referred us and like, thank them. Like we've just thrived because of that referral. So everybody wins. Yeah. I'm a big fan of that.
Melissa (19:44.197)
Yes. Yep.
Melissa (19:56.71)
Yes.
Yep. Absolutely.
Meredith (20:01.964)
I always liken it to personal relationships. I love, one of my biggest passions is like...
connecting friends and identifying who would really mesh well together. And it's the exact same thing, right? Like, you know that Melissa and, I actually didn't even know that we had a Natalie that put us in touch, but that name just like totally came out of thin air. But like, I know that maybe Melissa and Megan, for instance, my...
Steve / Agency Outsight (20:28.569)
really?
Meredith (20:38.572)
be friends, like Melissa and Steve, my God, like I know that they're gonna match and they're gonna work. They'll like, their minds will meld and then you guys become super, super close and then the three of us can hang and it's just a win for everybody, but I agree, like from a business perspective, it's just like, it's karma, like it'll all come back and it allows you to succeed.
Melissa (20:42.367)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Melissa (20:52.976)
Yep.
Steve / Agency Outsight (21:02.958)
Yeah, agreed.
Melissa (21:04.389)
Yeah.
Meredith (21:07.744)
as a business as well.
Melissa (21:09.155)
I do think the industry. yay.
Steve / Agency Outsight (21:09.426)
I stand corrected real quick. It's was Natasha not Natalie. So those names were the same in my brain. Yeah. Okay.
Melissa (21:13.797)
Well, I was we know both of them. So I wasn't sure. But yeah, I was thinking I thought of the Sasha. Both of both wonderful women. But I was also going to say that I think the industry, at least in my experience, has seen a shift because when I my first decade in this space was like the policy was like, don't talk to any of your competitors. Don't tell them what's going on. Like they'll steal your ideas. And I do think whether this is like a cultural movement or
Meredith (21:16.47)
Yes.
Steve / Agency Outsight (21:20.622)
Yeah, yeah it was.
Melissa (21:43.654)
just a necessity in the space, I've seen an openness to sharing and saying like, this is what I'm doing, at least in the communities and spaces I'm in, there's a lot more transparency. And the ones that are kind of still playing that, I don't share or ultimately losing and you're missing out frankly.
Meredith (22:03.918)
also think that, I mean, I know that there are communities outside of Slack too, but I feel like, and this was one of my explainers as I was talking to my mom, and like to me, Slack communities are fairly new. Slack kind of was born to be more of a workplace.
communication platform. And now, at least for me and most other entrepreneurs, it's become, yes, you use it internally, but you're also using it to connect with other people in the industry. And, I mean, obviously communities go beyond Slack as well, but I...
up until maybe like three years ago had never really explored Slack and explored like the opportunities that I could have within that little platform. And now I'm in there all the time. Like it's like my little, it's like my social network in some ways.
Steve / Agency Outsight (23:05.88)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's way too much. think we can blame COVID for this, right? So we needed community and we couldn't do it in person. And I mean, I just looked at my Slack toolbar. I'm in 11 communities. That's a lot of communities. I don't know how I have the time. didn't realize it was that many, but I also know there's discord communities and, and, and other platforms. So I'm, I've always been, even when had my agency community over competition all day long.
Melissa (23:06.129)
Same, same.
Melissa (23:19.984)
Mm-hmm.
Meredith (23:22.879)
Exactly.
Melissa (23:23.898)
Yeah.
Meredith (23:27.608)
Totally.
Melissa (23:34.767)
Yep.
Steve / Agency Outsight (23:35.293)
I don't have that competitive mindset other than will competitiveness drive me to be better when I do some comparison. There's also some toxicity there, of course, if you take that too far, but I'd rather pull people closer and learn from one another and support one another. And if I'm not going to win this thing and I know you're going for it, I'd rather help you go forward or like whatever that thing is. I'm a rising tides kind of mindset. And I think we go farther together. then I could ever go alone.
Melissa (23:43.077)
Yep, agree.
Melissa (23:48.357)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa (23:57.402)
Yeah.
Melissa (24:02.256)
Yeah.
And I think if you're clear on what you bring, I think when people have a highly, I can't get near my competition feeling, they're unclear on what they bring to the table. So they see everyone as a threat, but when you're like, Hey, there's a lot I'm not good at, but this is one thing I'm really good at. And there's not a lot of people that are good at that. There's, don't feel that strong. And similar to you, I'm like, I look at people and I'm like, you're only making me want to get better at that thing or improve by being around peers and
You know, I don't even use the word competition. I just say peers. But I think that it sometimes is like, I find in founders I work with, it comes from like their own strong sense of what I'm good at. And if they don't have that center of gravity, they kind of look at everyone as a threat. So for anyone listening who maybe, you know, feels like they're not at that place where they can view everyone as, you know,
like community, are leaning into competition. think find your own center of gravity. Find what you're great at. Find an anchor in it. Claim it. Say, is what I'm doubling down on and let everyone else do their thing and learn from it and partner.
Steve / Agency Outsight (25:18.586)
Mm-hmm.
Meredith (25:18.678)
Yeah. I'll also add that, I mean, you just touched on something, Melissa, that like time, as we said earlier, is energy. And like you're putting a lot of energy into these clients or your team is putting a lot of energy into these clients. And so you need to figure out what type of client
drains your energy or your team's energy and what type of client like makes you guys come alive. And that's why I always think that I feel like niching gets such like a bad rap. But that's something that I always try to talk to my clients about. I'm like, who do you and your team just like get fired up to talk to and to work with? That's your niche.
Like those are the people that you're, and so if that needs to be your guiding force, go for it. But I, so I think that we need to determine that for ourselves and someone that works, like Melissa and I have very similar yet slightly different approaches, same with you, Steve. Like if I get to know you as a person better, Steve, I know for myself, like, this person,
Melissa (26:11.836)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Meredith (26:39.532)
we don't really jive. Like I can just tell we're not gonna work that well together. Who knows? Like it could be a great fit for one of you and it's not that that person is like toxic or terrible. It's just that we're not jiving. And I think that that's really crucial too, is like an energy aspect.
Melissa (26:53.318)
Yep. Yep.
Steve / Agency Outsight (26:59.258)
Yeah. So it's interesting. The niching, I'll use the word loosely expert in me is like, yes, but how do I, how do I find that audience of awesome people I want to work with? And that's not a findable audience necessarily. So kind of still needs to be tied to a niche and not to contradict, but that's just where my niching coach hat goes. That said.
Melissa (26:59.632)
Yep.
Melissa (27:17.968)
Yeah.
Steve / Agency Outsight (27:22.01)
You know, you see a ton of agencies and businesses like no assholes allowed. And I fully support that. Nobody wants to work with the drag of a client. One of the things that I guide clients through is like, let's talk about what your most successful engagement looked like. And it may not be how many clicks we drove or like what the ROI was, but like we, connected so well that we did such great work together and let's recreate that's your next client. So how do you take that DNA of what your best engagements were and recreate that to find more of those.
Melissa (27:45.436)
Yes.
Steve / Agency Outsight (27:52.185)
Where are those people? I'm quick to say I had a discovery call with a potential agency this morning in Canada. It'd be a great client for me. I know the changes I can impact on their business. My last statement was, if you and your partners are not feeling me, I'll introduce you to a handful of my peers. I don't want to pull out my Sandler black belt and force you to work with me only for you to regret it. I'd rather you choose who you connect with.
Melissa (28:07.974)
That's always what I say too. Yep.
Meredith (28:08.206)
Totally.
Melissa (28:14.214)
Well, and those client relationships never work out because from the get-go, they're waiting for you to mess up and you will because we're human. So I say the same thing too. I say, look, like I would love to work with you, but only if it's on your terms and you wanna work with me too. I think there's two layers to what you're saying. I think there's like on paper criteria to a niche, like obviously certain industries or company size or growth stage or problems they have.
Meredith (28:29.208)
Yeah.
Melissa (28:43.13)
You have to identify that as an agency on paper. And then I think the layer Meredith's talking about is like a chemistry thing. Those are softer things that you have to evaluate on a call with someone. And I think, again, this goes back to how well do you know yourself and your team and the personality type that fits your agency? When I talk to leads, I'm very direct in saying, I now know there's a type of person that I work best with. It's someone who, and I look for this on a
sales call and I say it on the call. say, if I'm talking to a founder who's pointing to everyone else as to why they're in the position they're in, it's a no-go for me. I know I'm not gonna get results. I've worked with those before. just, there's nothing I can do because they haven't come to the conclusion that they're part of the problem. And it's not to say like, I need people to be like, I'm the problem, but it's like, you're the founder. You need to take accountability.
And if we're gonna go on a growth path together, like you need to own it with me. Like I can't carry this on my own. Like I'm just here as a consultant. I'm gonna help, but like, this is your thing. so.
Meredith (29:49.942)
Right, like I'm not the solver of all problems.
Melissa (29:53.147)
I can't fix your business, it's not my business. So, you know, there's things like that. And then, yeah, certain personality types. Like I've talked to some people that are super abrasive and I'm kind of like, I'm direct, but I'm empathetic. I'm like, sometimes I'm just like this, I can't work with someone that way. Like we're not gonna be able to solve problems. So I think there's like two layers. There's on paper, you have to be really clear on what the company profile needs to look like.
And that's important for lead gen. And then I think, you you need to evaluate the softer things on a discovery call, but I'm also a big fan of like what you put out, you attract back. So if you're putting out certain kinds of content, you're going to attract people that like the way you speak, the way you frame things, the way you talk. And that's why I think a podcast is great in addition to like LinkedIn content, because you can hear how I talk. And if you like that, then we're going to be good partners, you know?
Meredith (30:38.338)
Mm-hmm.
Steve / Agency Outsight (30:39.246)
Yeah. Yeah.
Meredith (30:47.31)
Mm-hmm.
I'll add that I think especially in the beginning, like I'm all about niching, I'm all about specializing in terms of like the type of people that you're working with and the type of work that you're doing. But in the beginning, I would even say for like one, two, maybe even three years, work with almost anyone. And by doing that, it's almost like a process of elimination.
And you really need to look at those trends of who is it that we really worked well with? Who did the team not really work very well with? And you continue to learn who that right client is by understanding who the wrong clients are. So I think that all of those things are really important. I mean,
the biggest thing is that it takes time. Like it's, you're not gonna like identify who those perfect people are overnight.
Steve / Agency Outsight (31:52.227)
No, you can't, you need the app bats to under, you need the mistakes. You need to work with horrible clients. We're just the wrong clients that, you know, we don't work so well in the fintech space because God, it boring. It's boring. And it's all defined by lawyers and whatever. And so we really want to work in the CPG space because we can have more fun, but also no assholes allowed. so, yeah, I love that.
Meredith (31:56.267)
Exactly.
Meredith (32:12.118)
It's interesting too, because I was just talking to somebody this morning. I was at this breakfast club meetup in Brooklyn. I don't necessarily say, I don't think anywhere anymore that I don't work with men. I used to, when I started out, I was only working with female entrepreneurs. And then at that time I was living in California and
California then enacted a law that said that you're not able to just work with one gender. And so then I had to rejigger things, but basically it's interesting because like the amount of leads that I get from male founders, it's pretty minimal. And like, it's a nothing, like I would love to work with a man, but it's interesting that
maybe they're not necessarily attracted to working with somebody like me for whatever reason. And like that's okay too. I also like working with women fully and with non-binary, whatever. But yeah, so it's, as Melissa said, you're like, what you're putting out there, you're attracting.
Steve / Agency Outsight (33:32.091)
So here's a question for that. I also have never put out anything about I'd rather work with one gender over another or whatever. More than two thirds of all of my clients since I've been a coach have been female led agencies and I love that. I've spoken about this a number of times with friends and peer coaches that I want to support anybody that doesn't have the support that they need. And in most cases it's BIPOC or female led agencies or minority led agencies. And so that's been a core of my client base.
And I love that and I want to give them whatever I can. And I feel odd saying that as like the old white dude who ran an agency, because like that's a majority of what the agency founders are. Fewer leads come in for me that are white dudes running agencies. And I don't know if that's cause fewer white dudes have this toxicity of, can't ask for help if there's a mental block there, if there's a vulnerability block. I don't know what it is, but I'm okay with it. And like, I wish everybody would ask for help when they need it, obviously.
Meredith (34:22.018)
Yes.
Steve / Agency Outsight (34:31.086)
mental health, coaching help, whatever. But yeah, I don't put it out there that like, know, women led or minority led coach available for hire. And that's just where it comes from.
Meredith (34:42.094)
I think, I mean, I don't want to like put a stake in the ground that that's the case, that, you know, white heterosexual men are not really open to that help. But I think that it has...
Melissa (34:58.832)
or there's just a lot of pressure that they have to pretend like they have it figured out. Yeah.
Meredith (35:02.894)
Exactly. I think that it does have some weight to it. I mean, I'm married to somebody who is like, he could certainly use support from a therapy standpoint. And I think it's just harder for men in society to admit that they need that support.
Steve / Agency Outsight (35:03.482)
Right. That's what I mean by it. Yeah.
Meredith (35:29.058)
that's its own problem, right? Like I think that that's a problem that needs to be addressed overall. And I think hopefully in our generation that will be the case. But yeah, I agree. think the majority of my clients and the leads that I get really are more underserved founders. And I think that that type of person is somebody who
Melissa (35:31.003)
Yeah.
Meredith (35:59.523)
has maybe, it's almost like they've needed to get comfortable asking for help.
Melissa (36:04.934)
I think another contributing thing to that, my guess, again, like we don't know, we don't have like full data, but we know what's driving entrepreneurship right now is women. Like women are the biggest growth. We have percentages in our pitch deck, but we know women are driving growth, particularly in the entrepreneurship sector. I don't know what it is in the agency space. We know we're far outnumbered in terms of agency ownership, but I would guess.
that a lot of the new upcoming growing indie agencies are led by women. So I think that's probably playing a role. But yeah, think, yeah, our approaches, all three of us, there's a lot of empathy, sustainability, which sometimes goes against traditional male driven strategies that are more about, you know, faster, harder, like, you know,
aggressiveness and reach goals at all costs. It doesn't matter if you burn out. I lived in those cultures my whole agency career and I had to walk away because I like, I burnt out. I could not do it anymore. And I do think there's a new generation of agencies that are looking at growth in a different way and saying, we gotta take care of our people. We wanna do work right. We wanna get results for our clients. And we as founders need to be
Meredith (37:11.18)
Yeah.
Melissa (37:28.89)
running a sustainable business, can't be taking calls at all hours, any time of day, there needs to be expectations.
Meredith (37:36.375)
And hey, like there are those people out there, right? Like it might not be three of us, but there, and I see them all over Instagram and on LinkedIn. It's like, three X your revenue in six months or like whatever. Those people promising those things are out there and who knows, maybe it's that exact stereotype or that exact person that is attracted to them.
Melissa (37:40.113)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa (37:47.601)
Yep.
Meredith (38:05.366)
rather than the likes of us. They're probably not listening to this podcast.
Steve / Agency Outsight (38:10.49)
No, and that's okay. So in a roundabout way we got there, we got to the topic of wanting to challenge this conventional masculine driven approach to agency growth that you guys talk about. And I do think that there's a toxicity to it. And Meredith, you just touched on it of like, let's 10X and build out these goals that are like highly just unattainable.
Melissa (38:10.581)
They're
Melissa (38:22.788)
Mm-hmm.
Steve / Agency Outsight (38:34.968)
I call them copycat goals. They're not true to anything tied to a founder and their values and their team's values. And so I want to hear from you guys, like, what does that mean for you? Like these, these like approaches to agency growth that you find not ideal or authentic or in how you're approaching them.
Melissa (38:51.858)
I mean, I think they're communicated as a snapshot in time. We achieved this in this period, but there's not a full picture. And sometimes those agencies, that story is like short-lived. It's like, yeah, they were around for three years and then they were gone. So it's, choose your path. And sometimes I say this to leads, you can do that. If that's, if that's what you're driven to do or like your goal is to sell your agency. So it's like quick growth, who cares? I'll burn it. And then I'm getting rid of this thing.
But if your goal is to have a sustainable agency business and you're driven more by, you know, a passion for the work, a passion for the clients, then I think it looks differently. And I think there's a lot of paradigms that we need to reframe and myths we need to break, you know, particularly around my zone of genius being sales, a lot of introverted people, and I won't say it's only women, because there's a lot of
creative men I've worked with that are extremely introverted and women as well that tell themselves they're not good at sales because of what's been portrayed as a salesperson, the Wolf of Wall Street. and it's like, well, no, that's not actually what makes a good salesperson. That's one type of salesperson, but that type of person is very off-putting to a lot of people. So there's another way to approach sales that is...
more about listening and empathy and understanding and really being interested in their goals so you can best serve them. So topics like that, think we, everything we cover on the podcast, almost every episode is a reframe of something someone was told is the way to grow. So we had an episode come out, I guess if this episode comes out in December, it will have been in November that the episode came out, but it was about full service being a trap.
there's been a lot of communication on growth looks like expanding your services. I fundamentally believe that as an indie agency, it's actually about doing less and doing it really well and being an expert. So there's things like that that we have to reframe because those strategies that have been traditional and have worked maybe for some don't work for all. And I think I really feel passionate about helping people fit.
Melissa (41:11.696)
Realize there's different ways to grow. There's not a one size fits all. If there was, Meredith and I wouldn't, and UC wouldn't have businesses. It's not as clear cut. If there was, there'd be a PDF you could download and you would follow the model and you would do it. But there's no PDF. You have to go through it from a very inside out perspective. What's gonna work for me? What do I need? Do I want a team? Do I hate managing people? Do I wanna work with?
know, big clients, do I prefer working with smaller businesses? What problems do I like to solve or me and my team like to solve? And if you approach it that way, growth is inevitable, but you have to be responsible about your growth. You can report impressive revenue numbers, but profitability, like Meredith and I talk about this all the time, sometimes profitability for those big numbers doesn't look so good, but you can say you,
I have 15 million in revenue, but you're pocketing just as much as someone at 2 million in revenue.
Steve / Agency Outsight (42:15.234)
Yeah, exactly. Meredith, are your thoughts there?
Meredith (42:19.576)
I think growth is different for everyone. success means something differently for anyone. so one of my clients, for example, they really want to keep their team in a brick and mortar office. And that's huge for them, right?
another client wants to be able to put their kid through college. Another client, they're like so dead set on making sure that they have a full-time team with benefits. So like you need to determine what makes you feel good. And I also think we need to definitely kind of shed away what society thinks is successful.
I personally, I don't want a team. I don't want an office. I want to be very lean in terms of my finances. I want to be able to go and travel if I want and even if I want to. I want to be able to be like on a Friday, I can leave and go up to visit my parents or go visit friends, whatever. So I think.
That's a question that you have to ask yourself as an entrepreneur. And also that might change. That could change year to year to year. And so being able to pivot as that does change is really crucial.
Steve / Agency Outsight (43:53.307)
Yeah. Oh God, you guys are singing my song a hundred percent. And it's to me, that's the very definition of the, of these copycat goals. You know, Melissa, what you're talking about is like, see other people doing this. I want to do that. And it's like, well, no, let's pump the brakes. What's meaningfully to you, like you were talking about Meredith, like, do I want to, for me, I want to go fishing on Fridays. I want to go snowboarding when it snows. Like, so how do I build a business around that? And I don't want to manage people anymore. You know, things like that. And so I've, I've done the work to figure out what's meaningful to me. And a lot of people do not. So, um, yeah.
Melissa (44:23.26)
Yep.
Steve / Agency Outsight (44:23.288)
I love that. I want to wrap up with a couple of rapid fire questions, kind of offbeat summer fun. One you touched on, which is interesting to me, but I want to know, and you can both answer these. What's one agency best practice that you think should be retired for good?
Melissa (44:29.596)
Do it.
Melissa (44:40.914)
Mmm.
Meredith (44:43.874)
Wait, before we get into this, there's a person right on the other lot. Can you hear them? Like, should I switch rooms, basically? Okay.
Melissa (44:51.558)
A little bit, not bad.
I think you're good. That's a tough one. Okay. Yeah, you do yours, because I have one, but yeah, go.
Meredith (45:06.754)
I have one.
Meredith (45:12.032)
I think building your team before building your offer suite. like building a full-time team before first understanding who your niche client is and having that defined space in the industry. I have seen so many agencies, like in the beginning, again, their goal is to have a full-time team and
When I first start working with them, I'm like, we need, can we just, let's just kind of be a little bit more lean, but they don't want to see that yet. And then a big recession comes or then the stock market crashes or this past like April, May happens. And it's really crucial to make sure that you are really strong and very stable before having that full-time team.
Steve / Agency Outsight (46:12.088)
Yeah, hire slow, fire fast. That's not preached enough. What about you, Melissa?
Melissa (46:14.29)
Yes, that's, I agree. Okay, I have two. One is reckless pitching. pitch less. Not saying don't write proposals, but competitive pitching. It's basically, it's a waste of time for the most part. no more reckless pitching. Don't respond to the RFP. If anything, ask more questions and.
decide if it's worth your time. And I say that as someone who wrote, I don't even know how many pitches in my career, but I still have PTSD. And then I think the second one is, and I'm calling some people out, but I'm so sick of seeing this. We work with big and small. So what don't you work with? Like, that's not actually any, you're not telling me anything. And the number of agencies that have that on their website, just please just.
claim who do you work with because I work with big and small. So okay, so you don't work with medium, you just work with big and it just is there's no value there, but everyone says it. So I think we need to like clean up our act on that one.
Steve / Agency Outsight (47:29.4)
Yeah, pick a lane. love it. What's a belief that you held early in your career that you've completely changed your mind about?
Melissa (47:36.701)
This is easy for me that a salesperson was an extroverted, super confident person. And I've learned as someone who's not that, I think I'm really great at sales. And it's actually because I'm a listener and I'm empathetic and I am intuitive in terms of what they care about. And I never gave credit to those skills.
And I wish when I was younger I knew that. So for anyone listening who's telling themselves they're not good at sales, but resonates with that, you're probably really great at sales.
Steve / Agency Outsight (48:16.036)
Love that. What about you, Meredith?
Meredith (48:16.343)
I love it.
I think that it's honestly that I could be my own boss. And I know that that's like, I don't know. I feel like when I, right before I started Layshile, I went to a psychic because I was like, I had just gotten laid off and I was like, where do I go from here? And the psychic said, you're going to start a business. And I laughed at her because I was like, there's no chance that I could be my own boss.
Melissa (48:42.816)
wow.
Meredith (48:48.536)
and run a company and I guess fast forward, look at where we are now and I guess I'm my own boss in two different businesses, which is really cool.
Melissa (49:02.096)
I think we need to go back to that psychic and ask her what's going to happen with agency darlings.
Meredith (49:06.242)
Dude, I've been to psychics during like very crucial parts of my life and they have always been right. It's not been the same person each time, but I believe in them.
Melissa (49:11.122)
Wow.
Melissa (49:17.745)
Wow.
Steve / Agency Outsight (49:18.01)
That's amazing. All right, finally, and totally not related to agency, but when you need to unplug, what's a go-to show that you can just throw on, binge out, and unplug from the world with?
Meredith (49:29.644)
like a TV show or...
Steve / Agency Outsight (49:31.15)
Sure. Or whatever.
Melissa (49:32.252)
Probably for me, Sex and the City, because it's like women in their mid to late 30s in New York City. And it's just like everything, every episode is relatable, like something I've lived, something I've heard about. So for me, I love that.
Meredith (49:49.743)
I'm gonna sound like a true hippie, but I don't watch that much TV. I feel like post-baby, I've stopped watching a lot of TV for whatever reason. But I just really like going for a walk. I think going for a walk like seriously opens my brain up and allows me to just decompress. So no movie, no TV show, really no.
podcast, honestly, just kind of like allowing my brain to breathe, if brains could breathe.
Melissa (50:20.23)
silence.
Melissa (50:24.092)
which is probably much healthier than a show binge, but.
Steve / Agency Outsight (50:24.42)
They can. Yeah.
Meredith (50:28.0)
I do love Sex in the City though, I'm all for it.
Steve / Agency Outsight (50:32.004)
Guilty, love it too. Meredith, Melissa, thank you guys so much for this extended podcast episode. I'm glad that we didn't hit the buzzer at 25 minutes and kept it going. Folks, agency darlings, the community, the podcast, check out Meredith and Melissa and the impact that they're having in our industry, debunking some of the things that are just toxic as hell and just providing so much support. I'm just so grateful to know you and to have some time with you.
Melissa (50:33.554)
Thank you.
Meredith (50:42.264)
same.
Melissa (50:57.17)
Thanks Steve. We can't wait to have you on Agency Darlings too and get your thoughts to our community as well. So thank you for having us.
Meredith (50:58.946)
Thank you.
Steve / Agency Outsight (51:06.245)
I look forward to it. Thank you.